Saturday, January 4, 2025

Joker VS Ben 10 (Persona VS Cartoon Network)


   "Form follows function - that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union."
-Frank Lloyd Wright

Joker, The Phantom Thief and a wielder of the Wild Card

Ben 10, The Galactic Guardian and wielder of the Omnitrix

These two teenage heroes were given the power to access a myriad of alternate forms that they can use at any time. But what happens if you were to put these two form accessing heroes in a room and locked it until only one could leave. That's what I'm here to discuss over who I think would win a potential future episode of DEATH BATTLE!

Before We Begin

I will not be using any mainline SMT scaling for Joker as though I think it's valid I completely understand that it's validity is debated and will only be using SMT If... and Devil Summoner as they both take place within the universe of Persona. And the main games I'll be using for Joker are Persona 5/Royal, Persona 5 Strikers, Persona 5 Tactica, Persona Q2 and scaling to other games that make sense to use. 

Also thanks to the G1 Death Battle Fan Blog team for their scaling for Joker and since I do generally agree with it, I will be using some findings they made and giving them their proper credit.

And for Ben I will be using Ben 10 Classic, Ben 10:UAF, and Ben 10 Omniverse mainly and statements from the crew that don't contradict anything that was established in it. I will also be using statements from tie-in comics and novelizations of certain episodes of the show for supporting evidence as they are canon and non-contradictory. 

Also this is just my opinion, you are free to disagree just be respectful.

Background

Joker

-Credit to the G1 Death Battle Fan Blog Team
Ren Amamiya was an ordinary high school kid until one day he made both the worst and best decision of his life. This decision was to save a poor woman from a man harassing her. This was the worst decision he made because the man harassing her turned out to be one of Japan's most powerful politicians, Masayoshi Shido. And because he was so influential and just so happened to get injured during this brief scuffle, he got Ren arrested and sued him for assault. This resulted in Ren receiving a criminal record, being expelled from his current school and forced to move to Tokyo to attend a new one called Shujin Academy. And the reason this was the best decision he made is as a result of being at his new school he met new friends who were also wronged by corrupt adults and a new mysterious phone app that allowed Ren and his friends to traverse through various adults Palaces and Mementos AKA the Metaverse, alternate realms where perception is reality. Ren and his friends used this app and abilities to summon the manifestations of their inner selves called Personas to steal these corrupt adults "hearts" the manifestation of their desires and formed a band of Phantom Thieves each with their own codenames. 

These thieves were Ren's friends from Shujin Ryuji Sakamato codenamed Skull, Ann Takamaki codenamed Panther, Makoto Niijima codenamed Queen Haru Okumura codenamed Noir and Sumire Yoshizawa codenamed Violet. His talking cat friend Morgana codenamed Mona, a girl that is basically his foster sister Futaba Sakura codemaned Oracle, his rival and Detective Prince Goro Akechi codenamed Crow, an AI with the directive  to become humanity's companion Sophia codenamed Sophie and a middle aged police detective Zenkichi Hasegawa codenamed Wolf. And Ren was made the leader of this band of thieves with the codename Joker as he was both the teams trump card when it came to strength and the teams wild card when it came to abilities as he can use more than one Persona. With them by his side Joker would end up changing the world and stealing the hearts of many corrupt adults across the country and even get his revenge against Shido.

Ben 10

Benjamin "Ben" Kirby Tennyson was an ordinary 10 year old boy both looking forward to and dreading his summer vacation. He was looking forward to it because he would be going on a road trip throughout the USA with his Grandpa Max. And he was dreading it because he learned that his cousin Gwen was coming with. Then when the three of them were setting up camp for the night Ben saw what he thought was a shooting star and it crashed in front of him. And as Ben was a curious kid he went to check out the crash site and it was there where he found a pod and an odd looking alien device did what it did and stuck itself upon his wrist with secrets that it hid. Ben would later find out this device was called the Omnitrix and the secrets it hid were that whoever wielded the Omnitrix had the power to turn into a myriad of aliens. Ben would use this and the fact that he craved adventure to become a superhero naming himself Ben 10 as a product of the fact that the Omnitrix originally only had 10 aliens unlocked at the start. Ben would even continue his hero work into his adulthood, eventually renaming himself Ben 10,000 to better represent the insane amount of aliens that the Omnitrix had and that he could now use, even eventually unlocking what is known as master control, which makes Ben be able to transform into any alien he wants to just by thinking of it. And Ben would even later find out that the watch he got all those years ago was just a prototype that Azmuth was working on, and after saving the world once again, Azmuth grants him the true Omnitrix. With the universes greatest weapon at his disposal, its safe to say that Ben stands firm as Earth's first and best line of defense against any incoming threats.

Experience & Skill

Joker


In terms of combat experience Joker has been fighting shadows with his band of Thieves for a little over a year now, and with this experience came a myriad of different skills like being able to catch up to and even match the strength and skill of another Persona user Goro Akechi who had been operating for two years before Joker. Joker and the Phantom Thieves were even able to match the power and skill of the Persona users of S.E.E.S during Persona Q2 which included 3 Persona users, Mitsuru Kirijo, Akihiko Sanada, and Shinjiro Aragaki who had been operating as Persona users for almost a decade by the point Joker and his merry band cross paths with them. Joker's skill also goes beyond just combat as he is able to even implement things he learns in the real world through his Confidants to the Metaverse with relative ease. The two most prominent examples are that through his Confidant with popular Shogi player Hifumi Togo he is able to implement the Shogi strategies she teaches him into actual combat strategies with the Phantom Thieves. And through his Confidant with the gamer king Shinya Oda, he is able to learn new gun techniques from him in the game that also translate to him being able to use them in the Metaverse. Joker has also shown excellent improvisational skills with being able to use his environment to his advantage with the use of his Phantom Dashes, like using skateboards and shopping carts to plow through Shadows at extreme speed, dropping chandeliers on them and blowing up cars and glaciers to do elemental damage. Although Joker is slightly lacking in solo experience he does have some and as shown in Strikers he can mow down mobs of Shadows by his lonesome. He is also an exceptional planner, coming up with a scheme to trick Akechi into thinking that he had died while he was alive the entire time and even managed to go through with this plan

Ben 10


In terms of experience, it is shown that Ben will eventually continue his hero work into his mid 40's I will not be giving Ben this as our current Ben that the show follows known as the "prime" Ben who is 16. Ben Prime is a decently experienced hero as he has spent a total of 3 to 4 years fighting off alien threats and protecting the Earth with the Omnitrix. The only folly in his experience is that he took a break from hero-ing for 4 years after a traumatic experience with losing his favorite alien when he was 11 and as a result told Azmuth to take off the Omnitrix although he does pick it back up after he turns 15 and continues to be a hero until the last time we see him at 16. Ben is also extremely skilled when it comes to wielding the Omnitrix, especially when he has Master Control unlocked as shown in his fight with Vilgax and Kevin when he was 10, and during the Highbreed invasion when he was 15 after Azmuth reunlocked Master Control after the Omnitrix recalibrated itself. Ben has even accessed Master Control with the Ultimatrix, an inferior version of the Omintrix created by Azmuth's ex research partner Albedo, after the watch was hacked. And after Azmuth gave him the true Omnitrix, he mentions that it does have a Master Control function and joked he would give it to Ben for his 18th birthday. Even though Ben prime is currently 16 I will still be giving him access to Master Control for the purposes of this debate in order to represent him at his best and he is still experienced with the Master Control function. Ben is also shown to be extremely smart as he graduated from the Plumber's Academy with a score of 95, only 3 points below Gwen's score and Gwen is typically regarded as one of the smartest characters in Ben 10. And going back to his fight with Vilgax, it is later revealed that Vilgax has been a warrior for almost 300 years and Ben has defeated him on numerous occasions.

Arsenal/Equipment

Joker

Phantom Thief Attire/ Will of Rebellion


The attire that Joker dons while on the job for Phantom Thieving is the representation of his will and his desire to rebel at the authority that suppresses him. This is what gives the outfit it's appearance as it's what his idea of and inner desire to rebel looks like. This outfit also doubles as a way to protect him from distortions, and as an extension of this it even protects a Persona user from having their will erased by even a god born of the Collective Unconscious. He can even summon his outfit back and regain his will after being erased.

Metaverse Navigator


A mysterious app that was put on Ren's phone right before he awakened to his Persona. This app allows Ren to enter the Palaces of his major targets and the realm of Mementos in order to take down his lesser targets. The app even makes a slight comeback in Persona 5 Strikers through the use of EMMA and allows him to enter the Jails of his new targets. Joker can even drag anyone nearby into the cognitive realm with him using the app.

Knife/Dagger


Whenever Joker is engaging opponents in melee combat with Shadows or other Persona users are his short bladed weapons, typically knives or daggers. Joker is seemingly an expert when it comes to using his daggers and can perform insane combos with it. He can even use it to pickpocket items from his enemies.

Handgun


For his neutral special, he wields a gun. Joker's handgun is his more preferred way to deal with Shadows when he is not using his Persona. During a battle his equipped handgun can carry up to a maximum of 32 bullets. His gun is also able to pierce through defensive enemy affinities, like their resistances, immunities, reflections and absorptions. 

Grappling Hook


This was a tool gifted to him by his talking cat friend Morgana. Joker can use this device to traverse around certain locations in Palaces way faster or reach locations he would not be able to get to otherwise. Joker can also use it to pull himself closer to enemies to ambush them and close the distance between him and his opponent.

Infiltration Tools


Joker has learned to make a bunch of tools to help him infiltrate Palaces easier thanks to Morgana. The most notable of these tools are items that can do elemental damage like Molotov cocktails, bombs that do Almighty damage, smoke bombs to distract his enemies, and lockpicks to open locked chests and steal their valuables like a proper thief.

Ben 10

Omnitrix


Ben's first and only real part of his arsenal is the Omnitrix. Thankfully it's a very powerful weapon to have as the only part of his arsenal. This alien device allows Ben to transform into a maximum of over 1,000,000 aliens, each with their own abilities. It can also scan the DNA samples of aliens that are not registered in the watch and register their new DNA and allow Ben to transform into them. Although Ben did use to have the Ultimatrix, which would allow Ben to evolve certain aliens further, this device has been stated to be an inferior copy of the Omnitrix by Azmuth, once he gave him the true Omnitrix. Although the one thing that every version of the watch posseses is the Master Control, a function that removes the need for Ben to even touch the watch to transform and allows him to use any alien he wants just by thinking of them. The only downside to Master Control is that if Ben were to be knocked unconscious in alien form, he would revert back to human form.

Abilities

Joker

Will of Rebellion/Persona Summoning/Wild Card


This ability is basically an extension of the Phantom Thief Attire section of Joker's arsenal. So pretty much every thing I mentioned there applies to this as well. The only real thing I'm adding is that through Joker's will he is capable of summoning Personas as they are will and psyche based. And thanks to being one of the lucky few to wield what is called the Wild Card, he is capable of using more than one Persona and at maximum can use close to 300 different Personas. In order to not go insane I will be only going over 10 Personas that I think are either important enough to mention, or strong enough for him to bring to this fight, although I'll get to that later and go over abilities he himself has, regardless of his equipped Persona.

Physical Skills


Thanks to being a Persona User, Joker doesn't have to only use his daggers to engage in physical combat with his opponents. Joker can use select skills that do Physical damage that would be stronger than him attacking someone with his dagger by sacrificing a portion of his own HP.

Gun Skills


This set of skills is similar to that of physical skills, as even though Joker can shoot at his enemies with his gun, by sacrificing a portion of his HP, he can access skills that would do significantly more damage than merely shooting at them.

Charge


Joker can use this skill to make his next physical or gun attack do way more damage then they would otherwise, applying a 2.5x multiplier to them, and after use of the attack the effects of Charge dissipate until the next use.

Tetrakarn


This skill warps the very fabric of space in order to erect a shield that protects Joker from the use of physical or gun attacks until he is targeted and reflects the attack back onto the attacker.

 Magic Spells


Another benefit of being a Persona user and especially being one who wields the Wild Card is that a myriad of Personas that he can use have a plethora of different magic attacks that he can cast. Examples of this are being able to summon fire where even the weakest fire spell is described as being thousands of degrees hot, ice so cold it freezes to the point of absolute zero, summoning powerful wind and also summoning powerful lightning. He can also casts attacks that do psychokinetic damage and lob out actual magical nukes. He can also use the very concepts of light and darkness otherwise known as bless and curse, which can erase the existence of non-evil beings, and annihilate the existence of unholy beings with sacred power.  Although none of these are as busted as what is known as Almighty magic. Almighty is basically the ultimate magic and is non elemental, it is also impossible to nullify, resist, absorb or reflect Almighty, even through warping space like with the skill Makarkarn which does what Tetrakarn does but for magic. And Almighty can even bypass the effects of the Omnipotent Orb, which bends the very laws of the universe to nullify every other type of damage. And Joker has a plethora of these that he can use, the most famous ones being the Megido line of skills, which can transform space into nothingness, and all Almighty magic shares the trait of erasing your existence beyond death if they kill you. Although he has two more powerful Almighty spells he can use, I won't bring them up here, instead they'll be brought up when their respective Persona gets brought up.

Concentrate


This spell is similar to Charge and it does basically the same thing, which is applying a 2.5x multiplier to Joker's next magic attack until he uses one and then the effect dissipates until his next use of the skill Concentrate.

Healing Spells


As any self respecting JRPG protagonist would have, Joker has a vast array of different healing spells he can use and even a weaker spell he can use, a basic Diarama, is capable of regrowing entire limbs. And Energy Shower is capable of reversing the effects of forced aging specifically, and that means the spell Amrita would also be able to cleanse it, as Amrita removes all status effects. Although his most powerful healing magic spell is known as Salvation, which fully restores Joker's health back to the maximum and cleanses him of any status ailments he has been inflicted with.

Status Ailments


And speaking of Status Ailments, Joker can also use a plethora of different ones to inflict his enemies with, like burn which does additional damage, shock which slows his enemies down, and brainwash which turns his enemies to his side for a brief period of time. He is also capable of making Shadows forget how to use their skills and by extension capable of making Persona users forget how to summon their Personas, completely locking them off from using their skills.

Buffs/Debuffs


Being a JRPG hero, Joker can buff his stats with skills like Tarukaja, which raises his attack power, Rakukaja, which increases his defense, and Sukukuja, which increases his speed. He can also use the skill Heat Riser which increases all three of those stats at the same time. He can also debuff his opponents attack with Tarunda, their defense with Rakunda, or the speed with Sukunda. Although he could also opt to just use Debilitate instead in order to debuff all three at the same time.

Special Resistances


Thanks to his plethora of Personas, Joker is capable of having many different types of resistances and affinities depending on which Persona he has equipped at that moment. There are 4 different types of resistances, Strong, means that attacks of that type do less damage, Null, means that attacks of that type are blocked and nullified and do no damage at all. Reflect, means that attacks of that type will do no damage and are instead sent back to the attacker, and Drain means that attacks of that type will be drained and absorbed, healing Joker instead of damaging him. He also can become immune to certain status ailments with certain passive skills that his Personas have.

Velvet Room


As one of the users of the Wild Card, Joker has the ability to access the Velvet Room, a realm that exists outside of normal space and time. Joker can access this realm in order to basically have a safe space, but in mainly functions as a place for him to fuse new personas and he can even enter it mid-combat like he does in the anime in his fight with Shadow Kamoshida. 

Space-Time Manipulation


In the world of Persona, Shadows have the power to manipulate the very fabric of both time and space. And since Persona's are their users Shadow Selves that are tamed and controlled, Persona users have the very same ability. This has been shown on many occasions like S.E.E.S being able to operate in the Dark Hour, in which time doesn't exist at all. And also in Persona 3 S.E.E.S completely stopped the march of time due to their grief over their leaders death. This also applies in Persona Q both the Investigation Team and S.E.E.S are able to operate in Chronos's realm, where time and space hold no meaning. Joker himself has also shown immunity to time stopping in Persona 5, and in Persona 5 Tactica all of the Phantom Thieves are unaffected by it.


Trickster Nature


Joker is a being known as the Trickster. The trickster is a being known to oppos fate and desire change. Joker was given this moniker because of his own innate uncanny ability to alter fate. This has been shown on many occasions, most notably with him being able to overcome the fated predictions of fortune teller Chihayha Mifune, who before meeting Joker was able to predict the future 100% accurately.  Joker was also capable of remembering the events of Persona Q2 after recognizing Hikari even though this was previously stated to cause a paradox as evidenced by Tatsuya, the protag of Persona 2 Innocent Sin. He is also capable of remembering the previous reality after Takuto Maruki, rewrites it, and even in in the ending where Joker lets Maruki win, he is still aware that this isn't the reality he hails from.  He's also capable of defeating Maruki in Maruki's own domain. And Maruki even states that if he were to fight Joker again, he's sure he'd lose. Although there is one absolutely crazy implication of his fate manipulation when he encounters the goddess Ishtar from the game Catherine, which is canon for Joker, she is worried that her own fate may change, even though she sees the events of both Catherine and Persona 5 as works of fiction she presides over and even talks to the player in one of Catherine's endings.

Third Eye


One of Joker's more versatile single abilities. His Third Eye can do a plethora of different things, like highlighting objects of interest, see the strength of his enemies relative to himself, track footprints, see things that would otherwise be invisible, and it can cause time to slow down from his perspective in order to aim better.

Down Shot


This skill with a gun was taught to him by the Gamer King, Shinya Oda at the arcade. This skill instantly downs/ stuns Joker's enemy for a short period of time. Although he can only use it a max of three times per Metaverse infiltration and it does not restock like his normal bullets do.

Sleuthing Instinct


An ability that Joker learned from his rival and the second Detective Prince, Goro Akechi. With this skill Joker can instantly learn the affinities of his enemies, making him learn their weaknesses and resistances so that way he is always fully equipped to deal with them.

Wakefulness


An ability taught to Joker by Maruki during his mental training. This ability lets Joker recover a massive portion of his SP, (spirit points), should it ever get low. This is important because SP is what he uses to cast magic.

Detox


Another ability that Joker learned from his mental training with Maruki. This ability allows Joker to recover from any and status ailments inflicted upon him immediately, without taking any turns.

Ben 10

Martial Arts Proficiency


Ben is shown to be a rather skilled fighter in multiple episodes, even in human form. Although he normally uses a fighting style better suited for street fights, he is shown to have some actual  martial arts skills and has been taught some martial arts by Gwen.

Enhanced Physical Abilities


Ben has also shown that he has physical abilities greater than what a normal human would be capable of performing. This has been shown on numerous occasions, like this insane height on a jump you're seeing, or dodging shots from blasters, sometimes called lasers, which would mean he would have to be reacting faster than light.

Eidetic/Photographic Memory


Ben is also shown to have an excellent memory, most notably when the gate to Ledgerdomain glowed with the letters needed to open for only a few brief seconds, Ben was able to recreate the exact password needed with only a glance at it.

Friends That Are Me

Joker

Arsene


Arsene was Joker's first ever Persona, awakening to him in order to protect his new friend Ryuji from harm. This gentleman thief is based on the one of the same name from the novels of Maurice Leblanc. He specializes in Curse skills, and is weak to Ice and Bless skills.

Jack Frost


Clean up, hee! Clean up, ho! Clean up hee-ho, here we go! Bury them in pure, white snow! Heeee-HO! Jack Frost is one of the earliest Personas that Joker can get, and he is basically the mascot of Atlus. He specializes in and blocks Ice skills and is weak to Fire skills.

King Frost


King Frost is an evolution of sorts to Jack Frost. He even rules over an infinite amount of lesser Jack Frosts and has the power to freeze over the entire world but is too naive to use it. He specializes in and Absorbs Ice skills, is immune to Bless skills and has no exploitable weaknesses.

Yoshitsune


Yoshitsune is one of the more powerful Personas that Joker has access to. He is based on the Japanese soldier of the same name from the 12th century. He specializes in dealing powerful physical skills and is also completely immune to physical attacks and even has a special physical skill called Hassou Tobi which does light physical damage 8 times. He also reflects Electricity skills and has no exploitable weaknesses.

Kohryu


Another one of the more powerful Personas that Joker has in his possession and it symbolizes Ren's bond with his father figure Sojiro Sakura. This dragon governs the very stars themselves and has the might to move all creation. He specializes in, and blocks both Psy and Bless skills. Although he does posses a weakness to nuclear skills.


Vishnu


Vishnu is another powerful Persona that Joker has. He is a major god of Hinduism and acts as both the preserver and protector of the universe to maintain it's balance. He absorbs Ice skills, nulls Bless and Curse skills and is weak to Fire skills.

Lakshmi


This Persona is the representation of Ren's bond with the fortune teller Chihaya Mifune. She is the Hindu goddess of beauty and good fortune, and is also the wife of Vishnu. She specializes in skills suited for healing and status recovery, resists Ice skills and is weak to Fire skills.

Mada


This Persona symbolizes Ren's bond with his gun wielding teacher and pseudo little brother Shinya Oda. He is yet another Hindu deity with a mouth so large it can swallow the universe in one bite. He specializes in and drains Fire skills, blocks Nuke skills, resists Psy skills, and is weak to Ice skills.

Lucifer


The second most powerful Persona that Joker has in his wide array of Personas. The fallen angel represents Ren's bond with his shogi friend Hifumi Togo. As the original fallen angel he now waits in hell for his second chance to rebel against God. He absorbs Curse skills, blocks Physical and Gun skills, but is weak to Bless skills. And for his secret weapon he comes with a signature Almighty move Morning Star. Which summons a beam from stars in outer space to attack his enemies.

Satanael


Satanael is Joker's ultimate Persona and the culmination of all the bonds he's made during his year in Tokyo. He awakened to him by breaking the shackles off of Arsene and unleashing his true power. Satanael is also giant enough to reach the clouds. He also comes equipped with a signature Almighty skill Sinful Shell, a bullet formed by all of the seven deadly sins which can pierce through a god. In gameplay during Persona 5 he resists every damage type, except Curse which he absorbs and Bless which he nullifies. And in gameplay during his boss fight in Persona 3 Reload he absorbs all damage types. However in the one true lore instance when he is summoned he is completely impervious to damage as Joker is able to block an Almighty attack with him equipped.

Ben 10

Heatblast
Heatblast was the very first alien that Ben had ever unlocked. As you can probably tell by his design, his specialty lies in his fire powers. As a Pyronite he can shoot fire from both his hands and just his fingers, create fireballs, and he can even use the fire he creates to propel himself and fly. He can even emit the heat of a supernova. Although as a being of basically pure fire, anything that can extinguish it could be considered a weakness.

Diamondhead


Diamondhead is Ben's tank alien, as a Petrosapien, his body is entirely made up of sharp crystal that he can shapeshift in almost any way he can, like firing crystal shards from his hands and turning his arms into blades. And like I said before as Ben's tank alien his body is extremely durable and he is capable of regrowing limbs should they be destroyed.

Ghostfreak


Ghostfreak is an Ectonurite and as one he has many abilities that are akin to powers that ghosts would have. Like flight, invisibility, intangibility, and possession. He can also make other objects invisible or intangible when grabbing them and can make only certain parts of his body invisible or intangible rather than his full body if need be. But he does possess some weaknesses, most notably that if he is exposed to sunlight for too long, he risks being disintegrated like a vampire.


Humungosaur

Humungosaur is another one of the first aliens that Ben unlocked after the Omnitrix recalibrated itself after 4 years of not using it. Humungosuar belongs to a dinosaur like species known as the Vaxasaurians. He is also one of Ben's heavier hitters as he can lift up things almost twice his huge size and throw them around. He also has the ability to grow bigger and that translates to his strength as well.


 Way Big


Way Big is a To'Kustar, a species of alien that is born during storms of cosmic proportions. And being a To'Kustar he is an alien of massive size, hence the name, and his power is enough to match his size as in his debut, he easily defeats Vilgax's army and launches him into deep space. And during the events of Omniverse he is able to match the speed of and overpower the Incursean Conquest ray, which could destroy Pluto.

Gravattack

Gravattack is another one of Ben's heavier hitters. As the name implies he has the power to control gravity, like increasing it to crush his opponents or if that doesn't work, decreasing it to make his opponents levitate, leaving them vulnerable to attack. He can also make himself levitate and has his own orbit. He also has the power to accidently create a black hole and can even make it a quasar if he gets that power under control. He does have one major drawback being that if the core of his chest gets targeted it causes him immense pain and could cause him to explode.

Atomix

Atomix is one of the most powerful aliens that Ben unlocked at 16 years old. He has the power of nucleosis, being able to crate massive nuclear attacks like creating a miniature sun and being able to emit nuclear radiation levels of heat. He is also capable of overpowering Albedos Ultimate Humungosaur with a single punch.

Feedback


Feedback is another one of Ben's heavy hitters, and the alien that Ben lost as an 11 year old which led to him asking Azmuth to take off the Omnitrix. He does eventually recover Feedback's DNA after forgiving his past self. As a Conductoid, Feedback has the power to absorb and shoot out energy, most commonly electricity, but any type of energy works. He does this by using his tail plugs to absorb energy and his finger plugs to shoot it out, and he can also use the energy he shoots out to propel himself and fly. And his energy absorbption is strong enough to contain the Big Bang and shoot it back out.

Clockwork


Clockwork is another powerful alien, as he has the power to manipulate the very fabric of time. He mainly uses this as a powerful time beam that can age things to dust, but he can also freeze people in time and send people from alternate timelines back to their original timelines. He can also slow down time or reverse time by spinning the dial on his head. His time powers also have the ability to affect infinite alternate timelines all at once as he reversed the effects of the Chronosapien Time Bomb, which erased infinite timelines throughout the Omniverse.

Alien X


And now for the big Kahuna to end all big Kahuna's. Alien X is by far the most powerful alien that Ben has. Alien X is a member of the species known as Celestialsapiens, which have power over reality itself and are born outside the universe in the Forge of Creation. An example of this power is that Alien X is able to reverse time, and other Celestialsapiens have changed the very meta of the show. His cosmic power is so insane that he has power over time and is durable enough to endure and not even notice the entire Ben 10 universe being destroyed and casually recreated it with basically no effort. And just a portion of his power was able to cut through the Contumelia force field, which they deemed as impossible, and the Contumelia are 5-dimensional beings, basically being gods.

Feats

Joker

Overall

  • Founded and became the leader of The Phantom Thieves of Hearts
  • Defeated multiple Palace Rulers and Jail Monarchs and successfully stole their hearts
  • Defeated multiple malevolent gods with the help of the power of friendship
  • Fought alongside and against the Investigation Team and S.E.E.S and was even in power with them
  • Stopped reality with being permanently fusing with the Metaverse on three occasions 
  • Hijacked the Game Awards to announce himself for the Super Smash Bros Ultimate

Power

Speed

Durability

Ben 10

Overall
  • Defeated Vilgax on numerous occasions
  • Stopped the Highbreed Invasion
  • Defeated Albedo's ultimate aliens, while not being able to evolve his own aliens
  • Beat Rex Salazar in a fight during their crossover
  • Saved the universe on numerous occasions
  • He's Ben 10 

Power

Speed

Durability

Scaling

Joker

Fellow Wild Cards

Joker should be able to scale to his fellow Wild Cards as they have been shown to be capable of using the same pool of Personas and thanks to the Persona Q games all 3 groups of modern Persona users have been shown to be around even in strength. There is also the fact that a cognitive copy of Joker fought S.E.E.S after they fought Nyx and was considered a difficult challenge form them, and while it was a cognitive copy, it was formed by the publics perception and he is at basically max power, even having a stronger Satanael than in Persona 5's gameplay

Ben 10

Alien DNA Samples


While Ben in his human form wouldn't be able to scale to other aliens, anything that other specific species of aliens can do, so would Ben in that form given that the Omnitrix allows for Ben to enter that species' peak of abilities relative to their age


Weaknesses

Joker


Despite his various strengths, Joker does have his fair share of weaknesses. Even with his truly absurd number of Personas at his disposal, he can only access the powers of one of them at a given time. He also runs on a limited pool of SP and if he runs out, he wouldn't be able to cast any magic spells, including to heal himself. There's also the fact that if any Persona with a weakness has their weakness exploitable while Joker has them equipped, Joker will be knocked down and stunned for a short period of time. And to extend to that if any Persona takes enough damage they will undergo a Persona Break and they will not be able to be used for a brief period of time. And even though he has some insane durability, a strong enough hit would put him down for good.

Ben 10


Despite his various strengths with the Omnitrix, Ben does have a myriad of drawbacks. Like basically every alien besides Alien X having an exploitable weakness like Gravattacks stomach orb or Clockworks windup key. There's also the fact that even with the insane amount of aliens Ben can switch to, he can only access 1 transformation at a time. And there's also that if Ben were to use all of the Omnitrix's reserve energy, the Omnitrix would reset back to its original state before unlocking the Master Control.

Before My Verdict

Cosmology

Joker

-Credit to the G1 Fan Blog Team

In order to fully understand the power of the Persona universe and by extension Joker in comparison to this particular opponent, I believe that going over Persona's cosmology would be extremely useful, too see both how big it is and to see how Joker scales to it. I will also be taking some of the findings from the G1 Team because, as I've said before, I completely agree with the way they scaled Joker.

The Physical Reality


To begin to understand Persona's cosmology, let's start with the simplest part of it, the Real or Physical World. There has been multiple statements to Persona's universe being infinite in size, like a fortune teller in Persona 3 that they see "The Void" in Makoto/Kotone's future and that it represents "nothingness" and is "infinite as is the universe." There is also that Yaldabaoth stated to have infinite masses that praise him connected by the Collective Unconscious. This is stated again by Enlil who managed to trap an infinite number of souls within her cinema labyrinths.  There is also the fact that alternate timelines exists within Persona, like the original timeline of mainline SMT, the Persona timeline prior to the end of Innocent Sin/before Eternal Punishment and the timeline of Radiou Kuzunoha XIV. There's also a character who mentions the many worlds theory, and proof that confirms it. There's also mentions of the future diverging into infinite possibilities. 

As the Physical Reality has infinite timelines and universes this should make the Physical Reality Multiversal+ or Infinite 4-D

Another important part within Persona's cosmology is the role that cognition has to play in it and how it makes up the physical reality. In Persona 2 the very concepts of rumors were able to alter reality, because they're incarnations of the Collective Unconscious. And in fact Philemon, Igor's master, stated that all souls have the power that created the universe and those with strong enough wills can create a new reality by envisioning it. There's also Morgana in Persona 5 stating that the world is a product of cognition, and humans can freely remake it if they realize their potential

This should give us a brief idea of how Cognition will impact the cosmology further when I elaborate on it in a future section, so keep that in mind.

The Velvet Room


The Velvet Room is an extradimensional space which like I've said before exists outside of time and space and is infinite in size. It is also one step removed from the Sea of Souls as souls come and go from it, operates on completely different rules of cause and effect and acts as an access point to all alternate timelines and worlds that are parallel to Personas own. It also normally doesn't exist and lacks a form, until it's time to greet the new wielder of the Wild Card, which is directly shown when Kotone is asked to envision her Velvet Room attendant. It can even be accessed in realms within the Collective Unconscious, like Mementos or the Kadath Mandala, but they cannot be accessed within the Velvet Room.

In conclusion, the Velvet Room being an extradimensional space that exists beyond space-time and is infinite in size, and acts as a point where one can access all alternate worlds and timelines within the multiverse of Persona. As the Velvet Room acts as an access point to infinite worlds and timelines, it needs to be big enough to house all of them, making it an even greater infinity than the Physical Reality, which would make the Velvet Room Infinite 5-D

The Collective Unconscious


And now for the granddaddy of Persona's cosmology, the Collective Unconscious, often called the Sea of Souls or Sea of Hearts, is said to be a sea of nothingness, existing conceptually and lacking a fixed form. The CU is divided into multiple planes of depth, called Mandalas. Which are patterns that are fundamental to the soul which are omnipresent across it. The unconscious also transcends the very concepts of space and time and brings together the past, present and future. It also predates the physical reality, coming into existence before life as a concept had any meaning and is infinite in its depth, and like the Velvet Room it encompasses all infinite timelines. This infinity is also further elaborated on as the Holy Grail has infinite masses praising it, and Enlil managed to utilize the Collective Unconscious itself to create the Akashic records, which records all infinite possibilities and infinite memories in order to trap an infinite amount of souls within her cinema labyrinths,

It is now time to return back to the role that Cognition plays within the cosmology, it is most directly evidenced in the Collective Unconscious. As Dr. Maruki, who was doing research into the very subject of cognitive psience states that there isn't just one world made of one human's cognition, but many worlds based on each individual persons cognition. This is all brought together by the Sea of Souls/Hearts which brings together everyone's cognition. And all these cognitions are all brought together in a shallower plane of the CU called the Kadath Mandala. The Kadath is where the Archetypes of gods and demons dwell within the hearts of man. And there is described to be an infinite amount of these Archetypes. There is also the fact that one cannot reach the Kadath from within the Velvet Room, but one can acces the Velvet Room from within the Kadath, meaning that the Kadath has to be large enough to encompass the Velvet Room. Meaning that by necessity it has to be at least Infinite 6-D. 

But there is also one more realm within the Collective Unconscious that resides even deeper than the Kadath Mandala, called the Monad Mondala, where Philemon and his arch nemesis and counterpart Nyarlathotep reside in the deepest depths of the Sea of Hearts. And as the Monad resides even deeper into the CU than the Kadath, it has to be an even bigger infinity and as such has to be Infinite 7-D. There are also arguments to get the CU even higher, but since this section is long enough I'll just link an additional doc that the G1 team made here

How Joker Scales 

-Credit to the G1 Fan Blog Team
This section is probably the easiest to go over within this whole tangent. Joker basically has a way to directly scale to the cosmology as Yaldabaoth merged the physical reality with Mementos, and Mementos is referred to as the the Collective Unconscious many times and even referred as the Sea of Hearts by Azathoth once Maruki awakened to him. And Joker should scale to any high end cosmology feats as such. Some feats he could scale to are Elizabeth threating to damage the Sea of Souls in her fight with Erebus from within the deepest depths of it, and Erebus' roars were able to shake the Sea of Souls. Another feat Joker should scale to is that his cognitive copy was stated to be the strongest presence that Fuuka had ever sinced up to that point, and she managed to sense the battle between Makoto Yuki and True Nyx from within the Sea of Souls. And S.E.E.S even admits he was a hard  fight and this was around the time that S.E.E.S fought and defeated Erebus within the Sea of Souls. 

In conclusion, Joker should pretty easily scale to the high end cosmology feats, especially when in regard to the Collective Unconscious and to the Monad Mondala

Ben 10


I also think it would be important to go over the cosmology of Ben 10, as like with Joker to get a better grasp at how truly big it is, and how Ben and his aliens scale to it to see how Ben stacks up to his opponent.

The Universe Prime


In order to truly begin to understand the cosmology of Ben 10, we have to start with the Prime universe. The Universe Prime is the universe where the events of the show take place and is stated to be infinite in size by both a novelization, written by one of the shows writers and a statement made by one of the shows creators. The universe also houses at least 100 different dimensions, and possibly an infinite amount of them. One of these parallel dimensions is The Null Void, and ex made as a prison to trap the universes worst criminals, is stated to also be endless or infinite in size. And to further prove that the Null Void is part of the prime universe, Kevin who was trapped in the Null Void for years, stated that he thought the universe was everything.  As the Prime Universe holds all these dimensions it at minimum is Infinite Universal or Universal+ but you could argue it being Multiversal

The Timestream/Crosstime


 The Timestream is a collection of all timelines within the Ben 10 multiverse and also the infinite universes within it. There is also Crosstime an explanation of time travel, and alternate timelines, like the alternate futures of Ben 10K, and the alternate timeline where Gwen finds the Omnitrix instead of Ben. A good representation of it, is after the Chronosapien Time Bomb destroyed infinite timelines, Professor Paradox takes the only surviving Ben to the space beyond to show him what the timelines looked like and how they're now destroyed. And the Timestream holds all of these universes and infinite timelines it has to be an even greater set of infinity, making it Infinite 4-D or Multiversal+

The White Void


The White Void is the space any universe takes before it is born, it is a realm filled with an infinite nothingness, until an alien race known as the Contumelia drop a device made to either create or destroy a universe into the void, and if the void is empty a universe is born but if a universe is full it will be destroyed. The Contumelia don't reside within this void and instead just birth or destroy universes. They are also 5-D beings whose physical forms are imperceivable to 3-D minds. And while the Contumelia don't reside within the void, as 5-D beings who birth universes within it, the void should be 5-D.

The Forge of Creation



How Ben Scales


This is also pretty easy to go over, Ben has many ways to directly scale to at least the low ends of his verse's cosmology. Like Alien X casually recreating the universe and everything in it, Clockwork managing to affect all infinite timelines at once, to get to Multiversal+ or Infinite 4-D. There is also an insane feat than Ben has in regard to the Contumelia, as a sword made out of a fraction of Alien X's DNA was able to cut through the force field that hides the bomb they use to create and destroy universes. And they said that it would be impossible to breach through. As such this feat would have to be at minimum 6-D as 5-D beings aren't able to breach through it. Making Ben scale to at least 6-D. And as all Celestialsapiens are born in the Forge of Creation and Alien X is a Celestialsapien, he could potentially scale to being Outerversal. 

My Verdict


Stats

In terms of stats this debate is insanely close, as both have universal and beyond feats and could even potentially get to Outerversal depending on how you interpret the potential Outer scaling for the Collective Unconscious or the Forge of Creation. Although Joker does hold a slight advantage here due to being able to buff his stats and debuff Ben's, so Joker gets a hard fought victory in this category


Arsenal & Abilities

In terms of their arsenal and abilities, this category is also insanely close and is more than likely a tie, as while Joker does have more of an arsenal, Ben's Omnitrix more than makes up for that as it has over 1,000,000 DNA samples in it, each with their own abilities and over 80 aliens currently. But Joker could also could match up to that as he has close to 300 different Personas and even though some of them share abilities, he could just use the stronger ones. So it's safest to say that they tie in this category. 


Skill & Experience

This category is also extremely close as both have similar skill, with being able to match up to the fighting prowess of people and aliens who have far more experience than them, but I'll have to give this category to Ben as he does still have more years of experience fighting than Joker. Given that he's operated as a hero for longer than Joker has been a Phantom Thief

Conclusion

Joker


Advantages:
  • Slightly stronger than Ben without giving both Outerversal scaling
  • Even giving Outerversal scaling to both, Joker can keep himself stronger by buffing himself or debuffing Ben
  • Cannot have his age manipulated or time manipulated by Clockwork
  • Can come back even after being erased from existence by Alien X
  • Can restore any types of status ailments instantly with Detox
  • Almighty magic cannot be defended against
Similar In:
  • Equal strength if given Outerveral scaling
  • Similar variety in abilities and can access them with just a thought
  • Equal in speed with their infinite ends
Disadvantages:
  • Certain Personas weaknesses can be exploited, leaving Joker vulnerable
  • If any Persona takes enough damage, they will undergo Persona Break, leaving Joker without a Persona to use
  • Could be overwhelmed by Alien X and his clones
  • Significantly slower without their infinite ends, even buffing his speed and debuffing Ben's would not help in this regard.

Ben 10

Advantages:
  • Significantly faster than Joker in finite ends
  • Certain aliens could very easily exploit some Persona weaknesses, leaving Joker vulnerable
  • Could cause Joker to undergo a Persona Break, leaving him without his Personas for a short period of time
  • Could overwhelm Joker with clones and especially clones of Alien X
Similar In:
  • Equal strength if given Outerversal scaling
  • Similar variety in abilities, and can access any of them with just a thought.
  • Equal speeds in infinite ends
Disadvantages:
  • Slightly weaker than Joker if not given Outerversal scaling
  • Even if both are given Outer scaling, Joker could just debuff his stats making Ben still weaker 
  • Cannot use Clockwork to manipulate Joker's age or his time
  • Joker could just come back from Alien X's existence erasure 
  • Even if Ben were to use any aliens to try and inflicting Joker with ailments, like sleep or burn, Joker could instantly heal from them with Detox
  • Even Alien X cannot defend himself from Almighty magic.

Both of these form changing heroes sure are capable of winning this fight. But in my opinion I believe that no card in Ben's deck could stand up the the trump card known as the Joker. As I believe that Joker would win an extremely hard fought victory as he has more ways around Ben's trump cards, like undoing Clockwork's age manipulation, and being immune to both time stopping and time reversing. He could even just will himself back into existence from Alien X's existence erasure. Meanwhile Ben couldn't really match up to Joker's win conditions, most notably that Joker could always be stronger whether they're given Outerversal scaling or not and that no alien Ben has could do anything to Joker's almighty magic. So the winner of an extremely hard fought battle is Joker







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