Thursday, July 17, 2025

Joker VS Legionis (Persona VS Astral Chain)

 


"Cops and robbers resemble each other, so there's not a lot to learn in terms of learning the logistics of committing the crime or investigating the crime." 
~ Andre Braugher

Ren Amamiya, The man who ring leads The Phantom Thieves of Hearts in the Metaverse as Joker

Officer Howard, a member of Neuron Task Force who slays Chimeras in the Astral Plane as a Legionis

The cop and the robber, a really cool dynamic for friends and rivals alike, and also my favorite game to play with my friends and family as kid. And today I'm putting two of the most prominent examples of a cop and a robber against each other. Oh and one thing that makes this more fun, they can both summon spiritual entities to help them in combat. So will the Phantom Thief make a clean getaway or will the upholder of the law enforce justice? It's my job to go over who I think would win a DEATH BATTLE!

Before We Begin

I will not be using any mainline SMT scaling for Joker as though I think it's valid I completely understand that it's validity is debated and will only be using SMT If... and Devil Summoner as they both take place within the universe of Persona. And the main games I'll be using for Joker are Persona 5/Royal, Persona 5 Strikers, Persona 5 Tactica, Persona Q2 and scaling to other games that make sense to use. 

And for the Legionis I'll use the one and only piece of media that they're in, the Astral Chain video game for the Nintendo Switch. I'll also be using most of the statements characters say, so long as they aren't contradicted and/or if they are backed up the game's in game database which gives background info and characters and enemies in the game.

Oh and before we begin I'll link all the sources I used to help this blog come to life and especially for calcs since I'm not that good at them. I will also be going over both series' cosmology and to save myself time and sanity I'm just going to copy and paste that entire section for Joker from my Joker vs Ben blog as I still agree with the way myself and G1 scale him.

My own Joker vs Legionis fan made Death Battle (don't read yet, it has spoilers for the verdict.)
G1's Simon the Digger vs Kyle Rayner 2025 blog (this'll make sense in the Before The Verdict section)
VS Battle Wiki's FAQ's (again this'll make sense in the Before The Verdict section)
VS Battle Wiki's Tiering System (Like I've already said before, it'll make sense in the Before The Verdict Section)

Some of you are probably wondering why I'm using Joker again for the third time. If you're one of those people don't worry, this'll be the last time I use him for a while and if you want to know why I'm using him again, it's because this matchup is my favorite for Joker and my most wanted episode for a future Death Battle. Although it used to Sora hence my first ever blog featuring the both of them and in regards to Ben 10, I did that one since I hadn't played Astral Chain yet and I'm a massive fan of the franchise and I thought that matchup would be closer than this one, as again I hadn't played Astral chain at that point in time. But now I've bought and finished the game and loved every second of it. Seriously if you have a Switch or Switch 2 get the game, it's really good. Back on topic now that I've finished the game and done more research on it, this matchup is way closer than I initially thought, so now I'm going to do a blog on my favorite matchup for one of my favorite characters in fiction and my current most wanted Death Battle. Oh by the way if you haven't played it, Astral Chain allows for you to name your character whatever you want, so the Legionis doesn't have a canonical first name or a canonical gender as it allows you to pick between the male and female twin at the start of the game. So I'll be using the gender neutral they/them pronouns to describe them. But as they have a canonical last name I'll be calling them Officer Howard in everyday life sections of their analysis and The Legionis for the operations part of it.

Background

Joker

"Checkmate"

Ren Amamiya was an normal school boy with a steadfast sense of justice. Which would normally be a good thing, but one day this sense of justice got him into a world of trouble. One day on his normal trek home from school he hears two voices in the distance that seem like they're fighting and being the type of boy Ren is, he walks over to check it out. Then he sees a drunken man attempting to force himself on a woman and steps him, grabbing the man by the shoulder and turning him around. But due to a stroke of bad luck the man is too drunk to move properly and falls on to the metal railing nearby injuring himself. And due to his position as a prominent politician named Masayoshi Shido he was able to successfully press charges against Ren for assault and even make sure his name isn't on the records for this trial and Ren is even found guilty of a crime he didn't commit, instilling him with deep resent for the justice system. Due to this Ren receives a criminal record and as a result is expelled from his school and forced to move to Tokyo to attend Shujin Academy as it was the only school that would accept him due to his criminal record. When he took his train to Tokyo and went into the Yongen-Jaya area of the prefecture he would go to a cafe where he would meet the man who would be his caretaker and practically new dad Sojiro Sakura.

The next day on what would be his first day of school, he finds a mysterious app that he deleted from his phone back on there, and encounters another fellow student who named Ryuji Sakamoto and the two of them say a couple of keywords that the phone picks up on. And when the two of them go to their school they realize that it's been replaced by a giant castle, where the schools gym teacher, Kamoshida is the king of the castle. And when he was going to kill his new friend Ren awakens to a power slumbering within him, his Persona, Arsene. With this new power Ren would defeat the enemies in front of him and then him and his new friend would find a strange cat like being named Morgana who could free them from this strange alternate reality known as the Metaverse. But the two of them would go back a couple days later as they learned from Morgana that if they went into his manifestation of his desires, called a Palace and stole his "Treasure" the manifestation of the object that spawned their Palace they could change Kamoshida and force him to be good from now on. So they do that and Ryuji awakens to a Persona as well and they even take their friend Ann Takamaki who even awoke to her Persona and with that the four of them succesfully manage to change Kamoshida's heart and he gets arrested.

Some time later, the 4 of them would officially form their group, calling themselves The Phantom Thieves of Hearts and would adopt code names to use while in the Metaverse. Ryuji was Skull due to his mask, and Ann was Panther due to the same reasoning. And Morgana was called Mona, which is just shorthand for his actual name. And Ren would dawn the code name Joker due to being the groups wild card thanks to his ability to use a myriad of different Personas instead of just the normal 1. And during his year in Tokyo, Ren would and his friends would venture into many different Palaces to steal peoples hearts and his band of Thieves would grow too. Those members would include the eccentric artist, Yusuke Kitagawa (Fox), the student council president of Shujin Academy, Makoto Niijima (Queen) Sojiro's adoptive daughter and the girl that's basically Joker's sister, Futaba Sakura (Oracle) The daughter of the CEO of Okumura Foods, Haru Okumura (Noir), the second Detective Prince, Goro Akechi (Crow) but also not really and the gymnast Sumire Yoshizawa (Violet). With his band of Thieves by his side they took down multiple corrupt authority figures. And this would culminate when Joker realizes that Akechi was never truly part of the Thieves and wanted to kill him. But then he and his friends come up with a plan to trick Akechi and they do so successfully. And in what seems to be the culmination of Ren's adventures the Thieves would go into Shido's Palace as he is now running for Prime Minister of Japan and they need to stop him before he wins the upcoming election.

And then Joker would lead his friends into Shido's Palace to get his revenge but before he could steal his heart he was confronted by Akechi and the two of them would finish up their rivalry with Akechi's defeat. And after Akechi's defeat, Shido's cognitive version of Akechi would appear and the real Akechi would sort of redeem himself by taking out the fake one at the cost of his own life. Joker would then go on to fight Shido and was even forced to fight him one on one and comes out as the top dawg and makes Shido undergo his change of heart. But even after Shido's public confession the general public seems to not care about the fact that their newly elected leader is a dangerous criminal. So with that in mind the Thieves decide to delve into the Palace of collective mankind, Mementos in order to steal the hearts of society. And when Joker leads his group to the depths of Mementos and encounters a being calling itself the Holy Grail which Joker's group couldn't defeat at first as he sends them back to the real world, which he then fuses with Mementos, and due to how Mementos works, being on cognition and the Phantom Thieves were being treated like they never existed, they actually fade from existence. After that Ren wakes up in the Velvet Room, a metaphysical plane that only exists for Wild Card Users. And then he learns that the man that had been guiding his journey the whole time was a fake and in actuality was the Holy Grail he just fought and he saves the real guide. He then goes on to save his friends from their fate of being erased and restores their will to fight against the Holy Grail again and win this time. Joker then leads his Thieves into the fight of their lives and they even defeat the Holy Grail, however this was just a fraction of his true power. He then reveals his true form as the giant cup they just fought was only the head of the giant being calling itself Yaldabaoth, God of Control.


And during this impossible battle with the people of Japan cheering Joker on, including all of the people that he made close bonds with give Joker an insane power boost. He summons Arsene again and then breaks the chains on him to harness that power and with it the giant Ultimate Persona Satanael. He defeats Yaldabaoth in a single mighty gun shot and with it, Mementos is seemingly erased and the hearts of society are stolen. Allowing Shido to be prosecuted for his crimes. But not all is what it seems as later on in that day a prosecutor who happens to be Makoto's sister asks Ren to turn himself in, that way they can prove the Metaverse was used in Shido's crimes. But then Akechi appears, revealing himself to be alive to turn himself instead as he was the perpetrator of the hits that Shido ordered. But when the new year passes Akechi is released from jail and even stranger things start to happen like certain other people who died also being alive again and Joker's friends are none the wiser. This was revealed to be the work of Joker's councilor Takuto Maruki, who gained the power to alter all of reality with his Persona Azathoth. And Joker would end up helping his friends to realize that this reality that Maruki concocted wasn't the reality that they fought for against Yaldabaoth and the Phantom Thieves would confront Maruki in his Palace where they would actually defeat him and his Persona, at least until Maruki mirrors Joker by evolving Azathoth into his Ultimate Persona Adam Kadmon. And even when that falls short Maruki's tenacity shines through and he fuses with his Persona to gain an even bigger power boost, but working together the Thieves coordinate a strategy and Joker deals the final blow to Maruki. Shooting him outside of his giant Persona and to end off their extensive fight Joker and Maruki would release their pent up frustration at the world through a fist fight. 

After that climactic battle the world goes back to normal and Joker goes back to his place in juvenile detention to testify against Shido. After the case goes well Ren is now a free man and even got his criminal record cleared. Due to this Ren was free to go back to his hometown and he would go back there after saying his goodbyes to all of his friends that he made in Tokyo throughout the year. But about 4 months later Ren and his friends would meet up again to have what they thought would be a normal summer vacation, but that idea doesn't last long as they end up back in a new Metaverse where instead of Palaces, new mental realms called Jails would end up popping up all over Japan. And the Thieves were framed for stealing hearts and Desires all over the country, so in order to clear their names they travel the country and meet two new friends who would also join the Thieves in the artificial intelligence stuck in Joker's phone Sophia (Sophie) and the hard-boiled cop who loosened up thanks to the Thieves, Zenkichi Hasegawa (Wolf). With them they take down the man responsible for the new Metaverse Akira Konoe, who made it with the app he helped developed called EMMA. And after that they take down Konoe, EMMA takes the Desires of all humanity and ascends to being The False God Demiurge and the Thieves have to take her down and are actually successful in doing so. After this the Thieves all go their separate ways again as the school year is starting back up again, and Ren leaves with the promise to meet his friends again one day soon.

Legionis


In the year 2058 humanity is on the verge of extinction, being overrun by creatures called Chimeras which hail from an alternate dimension known as the Astral Plane. And due to this the human race is forced to create an artificial island dubbed "The Ark" and retreat there to escape the might of the Chimeras. Although the Chimeras didn't just disappear as they also realize that humanity is on The Ark and go there too. But all was not yet lost as the police would form an elite task force called Neuron, where elite officers were sent to help protect people from the threat of Chimeras with altered Chimeras developed in a research lab by the commander of Neuron, Yoseph Calvert who called these beings Legions. This leads to the date of November 25, 2058 where the top Neuron Officer Maximillian Howard, would encounter a pregnant woman who was sick with being corrupted by the Chimeras and as she went into labor she gave birth to a pair of twins before succumbing to her sickness. Out of the kindness in his heart Max would adopt the twins naming the younger twin Akira. 

These two twins would be raised by Max to have a steadfast sense of justice and want to help people in any way they can. And as they father was a police officer and they looked up to him, the two of them would also want to be cops as well, though Max didn't want them to do that in order for them to be safe from threats. But the Howard Twins had their minds set on joining the police force and would train and study hard enough to become officers. And by the date of April 6, 2078 the two of them would successfully pass their exams and became official police officers. And two months after that on the day the twins were transferred to Neuron as their results for the exam showed excellent potential in their ability to use Legions. And on their first day as Neuron officers the twins would gain their own Legions in order to help protect the citizens from a massive influx of Chimeras. With Officer Howard initially receiving The Sword Legion and officially becoming a Legionis. And Akira would be granted The Arrow Legion. With the help of their new partner they would save multiple civilians from the Chimeras and with that Officer Howard and Akira would go back to Neuron HQ to meet up with other Neruon Officers Jin Wong who wields the Arm Legion and Alicia Lopez who wields the Beast Legion train the twins with their Legions for a bit before being sent out on another mission.

On this mission the Neuron Officers would split up into different teams to track a giant Chimera, with the Legionis and Akira making one of these teams. The twins would then track down this Chimera, where it fled to the Astral Plane and dragged The Legionis into the Astral Plane with it. The Legionis would then battle this Chimera with help from the Sword Legion they fight it to a standstill, but due to their inexperience with their Legion, they get too tired to continue fighting just as the Chimera fires two giant lasers at them. Being so exhausted they can't move out of the way, but luckily for them their dad Max would come in with his Axe Legion and block the lasers to save his kid. And the other Neuron officers would also delve in the Astral Plane to help the older Howard twin. But just as they attempt to leave the alternate dimension, the corruption of the Astral Plane weakens the members of Neuron and gives more power to the Legions as they were originally Chimeras and they're in their home dimension now. This results in all of the Neuron members losing control of their Legions and being forced to fight against them. And most of the members of Neuron lose their fights against their Legions, every one besides The Legionis. Who recaptures the Sword Legion and even shows such a high rate of synergy with it, it seems like the two of them are one. With this power boost The Legionis briefly fights against all 4 other Legions to help their teammates. But the Max decides that as captain he should be the one protecting his subordinates, especially since they now include his kids. And he has Jin give him his weapon and he goes to distract the rogue Legions and give his officers the chance to return back to the normal dimension.

And right after that a woman who went missing 20 years ago named Jena Anderson reappears on the Ark and destroys the research lab where Yoseph was developing the Legions. Leaving Officer Howard as the only one capable of using a Legion for the time being. And after this attack the Ark undergoes a massive wave of invasion from the Chimeras, and Akira and Officer Howard were sent to go help. And while they're helping Akira goes off the rails as they want to prove that they're just as good if not better than their twin even without a Legion. And this rashness would lead to Akira finding their own rogue Legion, but then they ended up being kidnapped and dragged into the Astral Plane by it. This forces the Legionis to go into the Astral Plane themselves to get their twin back and recapture the Arrow Legion which they do successfully and the twins settle their grievances and mourn the loss of their father and Akira decides that even though they don't have a Legion for the time being, they'll do their best to support Officer Howard. A couple days later Jena is spotted on the Ark again and Neuron is tasked to go after her and they find her in an abandoned section of a nearby mall. And one their way to Jena they would fight against and recapture the rogue Arm Legion. And they would use this in their brief fight against Jena before it ended prematurely as Jena would go to stab Akira with her new Chimeric abilities as it's revealed that she spent that score of years in the Astral Plane before finding the exit. And right after stabbing Akira, she called one of her giant test chimeras called Homunculus to battle the Legionis before making her escape, with the Legionis defeating it and chasing after her into the Astral Plane before being called back to our dimension.

Some time later, Officer Howard is given the good news that their twin is going to be ok. And the Legionis would go on a mission with Alicia to find and recapture the Beast Legion. Soon after this The Legionis decides to go on an off the books mission to the quarantined Zone 09 of the Ark to find out what secrets that Neuron could be hiding from them as Jena implied that Yoseph wasn't the hero of humankind that he presented himself as. And while on this mission they end up fighting another one of Jena's Humonculi and while they were struggling in this fight, Akira came to help out their twin, revealing that they're completely healed up and that they have their Legion again. Which results in the twins working together to defeat the giant monster. But Officer Howard is held in a cell for directly disobeying orders, although their confinement doesn't last too long as Jena is spotted once again and Akira and The Legionis are sent to go find and arrest her, but she escapes yet again with sending another Homunculus to fight off the twins. And the two defeat the giant monster. A couple of days later the twins are told that the signal for Max's Legatus, the tool used to control Legions and various other things has been picked up. And as this is extremely personal for the twins they go investigate. And while they couldn't find their father, the twins do find the rogue Axe Legion, which Max seemingly became data and assimilated into. And the Legionis recaptures it, adding the final Legion to their roster. 

With this roster of Legions and with some help from Akira, the Legionis is able to stop Jena once and for all, but the resulting explosion of Jena's defeat knocks them out and the fall from the insane height actually kills them. But as it's revealed when a Legionis and a Legion have high enough synchronicity, when the vitals of one party fails the other party fills in and it gives them the ability to truly be of one body, and they're able to fuse. Although in this inital fusion The Legionis wasn't in control, due to being dead and the Legion would attack anything in its way that it deemed as a threat. Including their own twin, but Akira is able to bring their twin back to their senses, right before Officer Howard is shot down by Yoseph. Later on, The Legionis goes to infiltrate one of Neuron's bases and re-connects with their twin, right before Yoseph orders his subordinates to kill Akira, and that triggers the same fusion phenomenon inside of Akira. And in order to stop Akira, Officer Howard learns how to fuse with their Legion at will and defeats Akira in a fusion on fusion battle and end up bringing Akira back to their senses. With the knowledge that Yoseph is actually evil and has something nefarious planned the twins know that they have to stop him. And Officer Howard and Akira go to the research lab where Legions are created and confront Yoseph who reveals his plan is to use the core of a being that he dubbed Noah to fuse all of existence into a singular nexus being. And he starts with absorbing the core into him and fusing with his subordinates. And when Yoseph fuses with Noah he becomes part of the Astral Plane and even when The Legionis leaves the fusion dimension, a physical embodiment of the Astral Plane is created in the form of Noah Prime. And in an extensive battle the Legionis is able to defeat the god-like being with the help of all of their Legions and their Legion fusion. Bringing an end to threats that want to destroy humankind and bringing peace to the Ark for the first time in a while.

Skill & Experience

Joker


When it comes to experience, Joker has a decent amount of it as he's been fighting off Shadows for around a year. And while his solo experience is lacking, he more than makes up for it with his skill. He's been able to match the combat skill of Goro Akechi. Who had been operating as a Persona user and killing Shadows and people for 2 years before Joker even got his Persona. And in Persona Q2 he can match the skill of the members of S.E.E.S. which includes Akihiko Sanada, and Shinjiro Aragaki who've been using the Personas for years before the events of Persona 3. This also includes Mitsuru Kirijo who has been using her Personas since she was only a child and has around of decade of experience with it, by the time of PQ2. Joker is also an expert in the field of battle tactics as he's usually the one giving orders to all of his Thieves, which can even include complex strategies similar to the ones found in Shogi thanks to his bond with a professional Shogi player. And while he does lack one-on-one experience compared to him usually working with his group, he does possess it. Like in his fights with Shadow Shido and Takuto Maruki. And by the time of Persona 5 Strikers he can mow down mobs of Shadows completely by himself. 

Legionis

In terms of experience, it's true that the Legionis doesn't have that much combat experience as the entirety of Astral Chain takes place in around a couple of weeks and an extra month due to the epilogue of the game. Meaning that the Legionis at most only has a couple months of combat experience, but they more than make up for it when it comes to combat skill. With the most notable example of that being that they're able to fight toe to toe with Jena Anderson, who underwent a chimeric mutation to fight off Chimeras in the Astral Plane for 20 years. And they also use their Legions incredibly creatively like in their final rush against Noah Prime, using one Legion to chain into another to finally defeat that monstrous enemy.

Arsenal & Equipment
Joker 
Metaverse Navigator

A mysterious app on Ren's phone that he can't delete, and let's him infiltrate the Palaces of people with corrupt desires. And should Ren's target have no corrupt desires manifested in the form of a Palace he can use this app to find their Shadow in Mementos. The app can also pull in nearby people if they're paying attention to him, and Joker could pull in anyone nearby in order to fight them in the realm where Joker has his powers. 

Knives & Daggers

When engaging in melee combat, Joker's weapon of choice is usually short bladed weapons in the forms of knives and daggers. Ren is seemingly an expert when it comes to bladed combat as he is constantly performing insanely skillful and lengthy combos with it. He can even use this skill with bladed weapons to somehow steal items off of his enemies.

Handguns

For his neutral special, he wields a gun. (Yes I'm making this joke again, it's funny). Joker's preferred tool for combat is his vast array of handguns if he's not using his Personas. Joker's gun's carry up to 32 bullets and are able to recharge over time due to the perception that if someone is holding a gun up to you, that you would assume it's fully loaded. It's also able to pierce through all enemy resistances to gun attacks. Which includes nullifications, reflections, and absorptions.

Grappling Hook

Like any self-respecting phantom thief would have, Joker possesses a grappling hook. He received this tool from Morgana as a means of making Palace traversal far easier than it normally would be. He can use it to reach places in Palaces that he would otherwise not be able to access. Joker can even use his grabbling hook to latch onto his enemies and pull himself towards them at high speeds in order to ambush them.

Infiltration Tools


Like any prepared thief, Joker has a myriad of tools that he creates in order to help him with operations, like Mementos trips and Palace explorations. These tools include lockpicks to help him open chests, smoke bombs to create smokescreens where Joker can use his stealth skills to hide, and even bombs that do magic elemental damage.

Legionis
Legatus Unit

The Legatus unit is used by the Legionis as a sort of storing unit. This is because this is where the Legions are stored in the Legatus when they're not in combat. And when they're in combat they use this to summon their Legions.

Intergrated Reality Imaging System

The Intergrated Reality Imaging System or IRIS for short is a tool that helps Officer Howard both in and out of combat. It's useful out of combat as when they turn on the IRIS it and uses it on a person it shows the officer detailed information about the person. They can also use it to highlight objects of interest and see just how far away their goal is. And see things and enemies that are normally invisible to the naked eye. It even helps to give clues to the older Howard twin for their investigative work. And it's useful in combat as it lets the Legionis see just how much health their opponent has during their fights.

X-Baton

The main weapon of Neuron officers. This is the weapon mainly used by the Legionis in melee combat with the Chimeras or other people who want to fight them. It also has the ability to change into a blaster and a great sword. With each mode changing up how the Legionis fights. With their X-Baton in normal mode, they focus on quick movements to perform acrobatics combos on their enemies and do a moderate amount of damage.

X-Baton Blaster Mode

One of the other two forms that the Legionis can change their X-Baton into. With Blaster mode The Legionis's fighting style changes to focus on using their blaster at long ranges and spamming shots to build up damage over time.

X-Baton Gladius Mode


The other of the two modes the Legionis can change their X-Baton into. In Gladius Mode the Legionis' fighting style changes into focusing on more slow but powerful strikes that deal significantly more damage. Although this comes at the cost of those hits coming out way slower than they would in normal mode.

Abilities

Joker

Will of Rebellion

The innate ability to summon and use Persona's in Persona 5 is granted by the user's will of rebellion. And Joker's a special case when it comes to Persona summoning as he's one of the few people blessed with the Wild Card ability. Which is an ability that grants him the ability to use more than one Persona. With this rebellious will comes a stylish outfit that protects him from outside distortions. And with their outfits comes a will so unbreakable that even gods born from the realm of everyone's unconscious thoughts cannot erase a Persona users will as seen with Toshiro. And Joker's will is so insane that should his will somehow be manipulated with he can just will his outfit back. And even erasing him from existence itself, will not work on him as he's able to just come back through sheer willpower alone, which is something he's done more than once. 


Physical Skills


Due to his abilities as a Persona user, Joker doesn't have to solely rely on his short blades to deal physical damage. And he can use these skills without risk of damage to as he can send out his Persona to use those skills without actually having to get in close himself. How these skills are used is that he selects skills that will consume a portion of HP to deal physical damage to his opponent that would even be stronger than those dagger strikes.

Gun Skills


A set of skills similar to that of the physical element. Like physical skills Joker sacrifices a portion of his HP to deal way more damage with the gun element than he normally would be able to do with only his normal handguns. 

Charge


A useful skill that makes Joker's next physical or gun attack deal way more damage than normal. When the skill is used it applies a multiplier of 2.5 to his next physical or gun attack. Although the effects of the skill dissipate once an attack of those elements are used, regardless if the attack lands or not.

Magic Spells


Ngl I'm just gonna copy paste this section from my Joker vs Ben 10 blog to save me some time and sanity. Another benefit of being a Persona user and especially being one who wields the Wild Card is that a myriad of Personas that he can use have a plethora of different magic attacks that he can cast. Examples of this are being able to summon fire where even the weakest fire spell is described as being thousands of degrees hot, ice so cold it freezes to the point of absolute zero, summoning powerful wind and also summoning powerful lightning. He can also casts attacks that do psychokinetic damage and lob out actual magical nukes. He can also use the very concepts of light and darkness otherwise known as bless and curse, which can erase the existence of non-evil beings, and annihilate the existence of unholy beings with sacred power.  Although none of these are as busted as what is known as Almighty magic. Almighty is basically the ultimate magic and is non elemental, it is also impossible to nullify, resist, absorb or reflect Almighty, even through warping space like with the skill Makarkarn which does what Tetrakarn does but for magic. And Almighty can even bypass the effects of the Omnipotent Orb, which bends the very laws of the universe to nullify every other type of damage. And Joker has a plethora of these that he can use, the most famous ones being the Megido line of skills, which can transform space into nothingness, and all Almighty magic shares the trait of erasing your existence beyond death if they kill you. Although he has two more powerful Almighty spells he can use, I won't bring them up here, instead they'll be brought up when their respective Persona gets brought up. 

Concentrate


This skill is similar to that of Charge as it does the same thing and offers the same effects as it, but with magic skills instead of physical or gun.

Karn Barriers


Joker also has access to two different spells that warp the very fabric of space itself to reflect either physical/gun attacks in the case of Tetrakarn or magical ones in the form of Makarakarn back on the original attacker. Although even when using Makarakarn Almighty attacks will still hit through the barrier.

Healing


Being a JRPG character, Joker has a vast array of magic spells that he can use to heal himself and his party members. And these skills are so powerful that even a healing spell on the lower end of the totem pole, Diarama, is capable of regrowing entire limbs. Joker also has a plethora of skills that heal the status ailment he's inflicted with. And his strongest healing spell called Salvation fully heal both his status conditions and his wounds at the same time.

Status Ailments


Speaking of status ailments, Joker has a vast array of them that he can inflict his enemies with. But in order to not go insane I'm only going over the main one I think is the most important for this debate. That being Forget, which causes opposing Shadows to forget how to use their skills, and if used against another Persona user, it'll prevent them from being able to summon their Persona.

Buffs/Debuffs


As what should be a staple of any JRPG hero, Joker can his skills to amplify his physical stats or reduce the physical stats of his enemies. His strongest buff skill is Heat Riser which amplifies his strength, speed and durability at the same time. And his strongest debuff is Debilitate which does the inverse and reduces those stats on his enemies. 

Attack Type Affinities


Due to being one of the few blessed with the Wild Card. Joker can use a plethora of different Personas, that all have their own unique affinities. In the image shown above, Strong means that the Persona resists that form of damage and Joker will take less damage as a result. Null means block and he'll take no damage. And Drain means instead of taking damage of that affinity, it will heal him instead.

Velvet Room


Thanks to being blessed with the Wild Card ability, Joker can access an extradimensional space known as the Velvet Room. The Velvet Room exists outside of normal space and time and mainly exists as a safe space for Joker that he can also fuse his Personas into new ones it. And he's also been shown to be able to access the Velvet Room mid-combat, in his fight with Shadow Kamoshida.

Space-Time Manipulation


In Persona's universe, the enemies of Persona users, the Shadows are able to manipulate space-time to a certain degree. And as Personas are the Shadows but tamed and controlled, Persona users have the very same ability. This applies to Joker as he has been shown to be immune to time itself stopping in Persona 5, and in Tactica him and all his Thieves are unaffected by it as well.

The Trickster


A unique ability in the world of Persona and seemingly an ability that only Joker and possibly one other person in this universe has. Joker is a being known as the Trickster, someone who opposes fate and desires change. And Joker was given this moniker due to his ability to change fate to an uncanny degree. His fate manipulation is so good that he was able to alter every one of fortune teller Chihaya Mifune's predictions, who prior to meeting him had a 100% accuracy rate. And he was even able to deny his predetermined fate of losing a game that Yaldabaoth had rigged from the start. And he was even able to defy Takuto Maruki, who had become a reality warping god, and even he admits should he try his fight against Joker again, he would lose.

Third Eye


An innate ability given to Joker by Yaldabaoth. When in use Joker can use his Third Eye to see objects and entities that are invisible to the naked eye, highlight objects of interest and see the strength of his enemies compared to himself. He can even use his Third Eye to slow down his perception of time to help his aim.

Down Shot


A gun skill taught to Ren by the Gamer King, Shinya Oda. This skill instantly stuns/downs his enemy for a brief period of time without actually having to exploit an enemies weakness. Although it only has a maximum use of 3 times per Palace Infiltration or Mementos trip, and this skill doesn't restock like his normal bullets.

Sleuthing Instict


A skill that Joker was taught by the second Detective Prince who also happens to be his rival Goro Akechi. This skill gives Joker the chance to instantly reveal at least one of the affinities of his enemy without having to resort to trial and error. And the maximum form of this skill Sleuthing Mastery lets him instantly see all of the enemies affinities.

Wakefulness

An handy mental trick that was taught to Ren by Dr. Maruki. This skill/ability lets Joker be able to recover some of his SP (spirit points) should it ever get too low. This is incredibly useful as SP is required for Joker to do anything with summoning a Persona other than using physical or gun skills as those require HP instead .

Detox


Another useful mental trick and ability taught to Ren by Dr. Maruki. This skill help Joker heal from any status ailment that could be inflicted on him, without having to resort to items or skills. And an additional benefit is that Joker will be healed instantly should he trigger this ability instead of waiting for some time.

Legionis

Skill Trees

While Officer Howard's Legions do have their own unique abilities, they do share a similar skill tree and some of those abilities in that pool are universal. The main one that all Legions seem to share is a skill called Hit Rush, which unbinds the Legion from the titular Astral Chain they're bound too and deliver a series of strikes for a short period of time. And while in this state Officer Howard can even summon another Legion to help them in the battlefield, effectively having 3 combatants on the same time for a brief period. They also seem to share passive attack, speed and defense buffs that cannot be turned off.

Ability Codes


A general set of abilities that Officer Howard can equip to any one of their Legions. With these ability codes there are a variety of affects than a split up into 4 different categories of ability codes. Parameters, Energy, Action and Resistance.

Parameter Ability Codes


One of the four major categories of Ability Codes that the Legionis can equip their Legions with. Parameter Ability Codes affect the combat ability of the Legionis and their Legions, and cannot be turned off. The main ones increase the attack, speed and defense of Legionis and their Legions.

Energy Ability Codes


The energy ability codes help out to recharge the Legatus's limiter gauge faster in order for the Legionis to be able to summon their Legions way quicker after the gauge is emptied or low on charge.

Action Ability Codes


These ability codes are various different passive skills the Legionis can equip that are triggered under specific circumstances. Most of them include increasing Officer's Howards attack potency while their health is low, or creating shockwaves when the Legion takes damage.

Resistance Codes


Another form of passive skills that can be equipped to any Legion. These skills nullify the effects of any status ailment that the Legionis can be inflicted with. Like Paralysis, Stun, Poison, Burn, Freeze and Trip.


Buff Skills


Another ability that any of Officer Howard's Legions can possess is that they can use the skills Power Charge which increases the attack power of both the Legion and The Legionis. And the skill Speed Star which they can all use does the same but with speed instead of power.

Chain Bind


By teaming up with their Legion, The Legionis can send them out while connected to the Astral Chain and use the Legion to wrap around their enemies. Which causes them to be chained up and completely immobilizes the enemy for a few seconds, leaving the opponent open for attack.

Chain Counter


Another ability that the Legionis can use by teaming up with their Legion. By summoning their Legion and having it run in the parallel opposite direction of the Legionis they form a barrier of sorts and if the enemy runs into the chain, Officer Howard and the Legion stop them in their tracks and send them backwards, resulting in the enemy being stunned.

Chain Jump


Another technique reliant on teamwork between Legion and Legionis. The Legionis can send out their Legion to a certain point that they normally wouldn't be able to reach normally and having the Legion tug on the Astral Chain to pull the Legionis to their location. They can even use this ability on enemies and turn their Chain Jump into a Chain Jump attack where they deliver high speed kicks to their enemies once the Legion pulls them nearby.

Guardian Spirits

Joker 

Arsène

The rebel that resides within Joker that awakened as his first ever Persona. Arsène is based on the gentleman thief of the same name from the Maurice Leblanc novels where he is the rival of Herlock Sholmes. Arsène specializes in and resists Curse attacks and is weak to Bless and Ice attacks.

Jack Frost



Jack Frost is another one of Joker's various Personas that he can get after awakening to Arsène. Jack Frost is basically the mascot of ATLUS, and he specializes in and blocks Ice attacks but is vulnerable to damage from Fire attacks.

Vishnu


Vishnu is one of the later Personas that Joker can get, and as such Vishnu is quite a powerhouse of a Persona. This Vishnu is the same one from Hinduism and acts as the preserver of the universe to help maintain its balance. Vishnu specializes in skills that are the highest level of power. He also absorbs Ice attacks, blocks Bless and Curse attacks, but is weak to Fire attacks.

Lakshmi


The Hindu goddess of Beauty and Good Fortune who is also the wife of Vishnu. She specializes in magic skills that are meant to heal wounds and status effects. Her affinities are that she resists Ice attacks and is weak to Fire attacks (kinda like her husband.)

Lucifer


Joker's second heaviest hitter in his arsenal of Personas. Lucifer is based on the entity from Judeo-Christianity and he's the original fallen angel who wanted to rule instead of God and now waits in hell for his second chance to strike against him. Lucifer also comes equipped with a signature Almighty attack known as Morning Star, which comes from outer space in at most a second to nuke Joker's enemies.

Satanael


And now for Joker's heaviest hitter, Satanael. Satanael is Joker's ultimate Persona that is seemingly an evolution of Arsène. Whilst he was originally manifested due to the masses siding with Joker to defeat Yaldabaoth, Joker has since regained this peak in power and even surpassed it by the time of Persona 5 Strikers. With Satanael comes another signature Almighty attack, Sinful Shell, which also happens to be Joker's strongest attack as it was able to one-shot Yaldabaoth. And with Satanael equipped Joker may as well not be able to be hurt as he either drains every affinity other than Almighty or is able to block every affinity including Almighty.


Legionis

Sword Legion

The very first Legion that Officer Howard was bestowed when they first became a member of Neuron. It comes with the abilities Round Sword which summons blades that spin around the Sword Legions body. And Triple Sword which summons three spinning blades that travel across the Astral Chain and that the Legionis can bounce back to the Sword Legion. It also has its signature sync ability, in which syncing with the Sword Legion lets the Legionis cut electrical currents of objects, and even enemies to stun them. Also while in sync mode the Legionis can use their focus ability which causes time to slow from their perspective.

Arrow Legion

The Arrow Legion was the first rogue Legion Officer Howard recaptures and it was even the Legion of their twin Akira before the older Howard twin got a hold of it. It comes with the abilities Air Shot and Slow Shot. Air Shot has the Arrow Legion shoot up into the air and have the arrows land across the length of the Astral Chain and the arrows then explode dealing damage to nearby enemies. Slow shot has the Arrow Legion shoot arrows in the sky and as they rain down and hit enemies, it causes the enemies that were hit to be significantly slowed down. And when synced with the Arrow Legion, the Legionis can shoot massive energy arrows that can also be charged up. And similar to the Sword Legion while it sync mode they can use their focus ability to slow down their perception of time, which helps steady their aim.

Arm Legion


The Arm Legion one of the stronger Legions in terms of sheer physicality that Officer Howard possesses. The Arm Legion also comes equipped with the special abilities to shoot laser blast from its fingertips and launch a sort of mini black hole that pulls in nearby enemies. And when syncing with the Arm Legion the Legionis wears the Legion like a suit of armor, which has them float above the ground and deal out way more damage then normal with their punches.

Beast Legion


The Beast Legion, is a dog-like Legion that Officer Howard has access to. It behaves like a kind of dog and can even be given scents to track down people or objects like a dog can. It comes with the abilities to electrify the Astral Chain and any one who hits the chain while it's electrified will be stunned. And it also has the ability to Howl so loud it stuns all enemies in the nearby area. Syncing with the Beast Legion has the Legionis ride on top of the Beast Legion like a steed and they're capable of moving at high speeds and can even attack with the X-Baton Gladius mode while synced together.

Axe Legion


The Axe Legion is the strongest Legion in terms of raw physical strength that the Legionis possesses, although it comes at the cost of it being extremely slow. It also seemingly has the spirit of Max Howard residing within the Legion. The Axe Legions two special abilities are to plant remote trigger bombs that explode either when touched or when enough time passes. And its other ability is to summon three blue shields around the Legionis that completely block damage for a hit and then dissipates after taking the hit for them. And when syncing with the Axe Legion it forms a massive almost impenetrable shield around the Legions that blocks most incoming threats, but the shield can be overpowered if hit by something strong enough.

Fusion


The ultimate technique of a Legionis. By having a high enough sync rate with a Legion and having a near death experience the Legion core can fuse with the Legionis to become one body. And after that the Legionis and Legion have the same type of blood flowing through their bloodstream and can now fuse with their Legion at will by slamming their Legion core into their chest. In this fusion state the Legionis gets a massive speed and power boost. They also gain razor-sharp claws, the ability to make a massive energy shockwave and the power to shoot energy rings from their claws.

Feats

Joker

Overall
  • Founded and leads The Phantom Thieves of Hearts
  • Successfully stole the hearts of over a dozen people
  • Killed several malevolent deities with the power of friendship
  • Stopped multiple attempts at fusing the Metaverse with Reality on three separate occasions.
  • Hijacked the game awards in 2018 to announce himself as the first DLC character for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate


Power


Speed


Durability

Legionis
Overall
  • Mastered the use of 5 different Legions
  • Has the highest sync rate of any Legionis besides their twin Akira
  • Managed to fuse with their Legion at will, effecitvely mastering Legion Fusion
  • Defeated countless Chimeras
  • Helped bring mostly peace to the residents of The Ark.

Power


Speed


Durability


Weaknesses

Joker


Despite Joker's plethora of strengths, he does still have his fair share of weaknesses. The main one being that even with the absolutely absurd number of Personas he has, he can only use one at a time. And that if any of his Personas take enough damage they will undergo a Persona Break, preventing Joker from being able to use his Personas for some time. Ren also runs on a limited pool of SP and should it run out he has no way to use magic, which includes healing and buff skills. And even with just how durable Ren is, if put down by someone or something strong enough, he will stay down for good.

Legionis


Despite their numerous strengths, The Legionis does have their fair share of drawbacks. The main one being that while the Legionis can combo opponents with their Legions, should their Legions stay out for too long or take enough damage the Legion will be forced to go back the the Legatus until the Legatus meter fills back up all the way. And despite how strong and tough they are, if they get slightly careless a strong enough opponent can take them down.


 Before My Verdict

Cosmology

Joker

-Credit to the G1 Fan Blog Team

In order to fully understand the power of the Persona universe and by extension Joker in comparison to this particular opponent, I believe that going over Persona's cosmology would be extremely useful, too see both how big it is and to see how Joker scales to it. I will also be taking some of the findings from the G1 Team because, as I've said before, I completely agree with the way they scaled Joker.

The Physical Reality


To begin to understand Persona's cosmology, let's start with the simplest part of it, the Real or Physical World. There has been multiple statements to Persona's universe being infinite in size, like a fortune teller in Persona 3 that they see "The Void" in Makoto/Kotone's future and that it represents "nothingness" and is "infinite as is the universe." There is also that Yaldabaoth stated to have infinite masses that praise him connected by the Collective Unconscious. This is stated again by Enlil who managed to trap an infinite number of souls within her cinema labyrinths.  There is also the fact that alternate timelines exists within Persona, like the original timeline of mainline SMT, the Persona timeline prior to the end of Innocent Sin/before Eternal Punishment and the timeline of Radiou Kuzunoha XIV. There's also a character who mentions the many worlds theory, and proof that confirms it. There's also mentions of the future diverging into infinite possibilities. 

As the Physical Reality has infinite timelines and universes this should make the Physical Reality Multiversal+ or Infinite 4-D

Another important part within Persona's cosmology is the role that cognition has to play in it and how it makes up the physical reality. In Persona 2 the very concepts of rumors were able to alter reality, because they're incarnations of the Collective Unconscious. And in fact Philemon, Igor's master, stated that all souls have the power that created the universe and those with strong enough wills can create a new reality by envisioning it. There's also Morgana in Persona 5 stating that the world is a product of cognition, and humans can freely remake it if they realize their potential

This should give us a brief idea of how Cognition will impact the cosmology further when I elaborate on it in a future section, so keep that in mind.

The Velvet Room


The Velvet Room is an extradimensional space which like I've said before exists outside of time and space and is infinite in size. It is also one step removed from the Sea of Souls as souls come and go from it, operates on completely different rules of cause and effect and acts as an access point to all alternate timelines and worlds that are parallel to Personas own. It also normally doesn't exist and lacks a form, until it's time to greet the new wielder of the Wild Card, which is directly shown when Kotone is asked to envision her Velvet Room attendant. It can even be accessed in realms within the Collective Unconscious, like Mementos or the Kadath Mandala, but they cannot be accessed within the Velvet Room.

In conclusion, the Velvet Room being an extradimensional space that exists beyond space-time and is infinite in size, and acts as a point where one can access all alternate worlds and timelines within the multiverse of Persona. As the Velvet Room acts as an access point to infinite worlds and timelines, it needs to be big enough to house all of them, making it an even greater infinity than the Physical Reality, which would make the Velvet Room Infinite 5-D

The Collective Unconscious


And now for the granddaddy of Persona's cosmology, the Collective Unconscious, often called the Sea of Souls or Sea of Hearts, is said to be a sea of nothingness, existing conceptually and lacking a fixed form. The CU is divided into multiple planes of depth, called Mandalas. Which are patterns that are fundamental to the soul which are omnipresent across it. The unconscious also transcends the very concepts of space and time and brings together the past, present and future. It also predates the physical reality, coming into existence before life as a concept had any meaning and is infinite in its depth, and like the Velvet Room it encompasses all infinite timelines. This infinity is also further elaborated on as the Holy Grail has infinite masses praising it, and Enlil managed to utilize the Collective Unconscious itself to create the Akashic records, which records all infinite possibilities and infinite memories in order to trap an infinite amount of souls within her cinema labyrinths,

It is now time to return back to the role that Cognition plays within the cosmology, it is most directly evidenced in the Collective Unconscious. As Dr. Maruki, who was doing research into the very subject of cognitive psience states that there isn't just one world made of one human's cognition, but many worlds based on each individual persons cognition. This is all brought together by the Sea of Souls/Hearts which brings together everyone's cognition. And all these cognitions are all brought together in a shallower plane of the CU called the Kadath Mandala. The Kadath is where the Archetypes of gods and demons dwell within the hearts of man. And there is described to be an infinite amount of these Archetypes. There is also the fact that one cannot reach the Kadath from within the Velvet Room, but one can acces the Velvet Room from within the Kadath, meaning that the Kadath has to be large enough to encompass the Velvet Room. Meaning that by necessity it has to be at least Infinite 6-D. 

But there is also one more realm within the Collective Unconscious that resides even deeper than the Kadath Mandala, called the Monad Mondala, where Philemon and his arch nemesis and counterpart Nyarlathotep reside in the deepest depths of the Sea of Hearts. And as the Monad resides even deeper into the CU than the Kadath, it has to be an even bigger infinity and as such has to be Infinite 7-D. There are also arguments to get the CU even higher, which the G1 Team went over if you want to read them in full here they are. But it basically boils down to multiple deities that reside in the CU seeing the physical world as nothing more than illusion or using the CU to create actual works of fiction they hold control over. Giving them R>F transcendence. And there's the fact that the Kadath is completely unbound by space and time. All of these is what would give the Collective Unconscious Outerversal scaling.

How Joker Scales 

-Credit to the G1 Fan Blog Team
This section is probably the easiest to go over within this whole tangent. Joker basically has a way to directly scale to the cosmology as Yaldabaoth merged the physical reality with Mementos, and Mementos is referred to as the the Collective Unconscious many times and even referred as the Sea of Hearts by Azathoth once Maruki awakened to him. And Joker should scale to any high end cosmology feats as such. Some feats he could scale to are Elizabeth threating to damage the Sea of Souls in her fight with Erebus from within the deepest depths of it, and Erebus' roars were able to shake the Sea of Souls. Another feat Joker should scale to is that his cognitive copy was stated to be the strongest presence that Fuuka had ever sinced up to that point, and she managed to sense the battle between Makoto Yuki and True Nyx from within the Sea of Souls. And S.E.E.S even admits he was a hard fight and this was around the time that S.E.E.S fought and defeated Erebus within the Sea of Souls. 

In conclusion, Joker should pretty easily scale to the high end cosmology feats, especially when in regard to the Collective Unconscious and to the Monad Mondala and can even scale to the Outerversal levels of power due to his power being tied to the Collective Unconscious.

Legionis


I think it's important to also go over the cosmology of Astral Chain as it's actually a key factor in this debate, which actually makes it more debatable. Another reason I think this is because it's necessary to truly gauge the strength of Officer Howard and how they scale to the full cosmology.

Our Dimension


To start us off let's talk about the dimension that humanity inhabits. Not much is truly stated in the game about it other than that before the game humanity was forced to flee to the man made Ark to take refuge from the Chimeras. And while not much is known about the size of it, the games database does refer to it as a "dimension" when describing the threat of Final Noah Prime. Which it seemingly uses in the place of the word "universe." As such the conclusion I came to was that "Our dimension" is a universe but not one of infinite size and hence is Universal in scope.

Astral Plane


The Astral Plane is also referred to as a dimension like "Our dimension" was but is also referred to as infinite or endless by multiple different sources throughout the game. So at bare minimum the Astral Plane is a Universal+ plane. But there are ways to argue it getting higher, the main ones being that both the X-Baton which carries the Astral Spark from the Astral Plane and Chimeras, residents of the Astral Plane are considered extradimensional. And given the meaning of extradimensional meaning that it exists outside the normal 3 dimensions this could give the Astral Plane Low Multiversal or Low 4-D scaling.

The Dimension Beyond 


And now for the grand finale of the cosmology in Astral Plane. This realm doesn't have an official name but I called it the dimension beyond as it resides in a space that even the Legions don't have access to. And it seemingly only manifests when one fuses themselves with the Astral Plane itself or gets sucked into it. This place is where the core of Noah resides and where Yoseph states that he transcends dimensionality itself. Because of how transcending dimensionality works while still being bound to physics this would give The Dimension Beyond Low Outerversal scaling.

How the Legionis Scales


This is actually relatively simple to go over. The Legionis scales to every aspect of the cosmology due to one simple thing. That being their fight against Noah who at bare minimum scales to the scope of the Astral Plane as it's the physical manifestation of it. And when it comes to the transcending dimensionality, all Noah forms should be on similar power level to that due to them being stronger than the core of Noah who can't really do much compared to Noah Prime and Final Noah Prime. And because the Legionis defeats Noah they should definitely scale to the full cosmology of this world. 

Fight Script
Thumbnail by user StQuentinScar on Reddit
For the first time in the history of my blogs I made my very own fight script for this matchup based on how I think it would go. So if you want to experience a fight between the two before reading the results I would recommend you do so. Although it does spoil the verdict but not my reasoning so if you wanna read it here it is.

My Verdict

Stats

Speed
Now normally in the stats category I would usually go over their AP first but I figured I'd start with speed first since it's more straightforward. While its true that in terms of finite ends, Joker is millions of times faster than the Legionis, if we take account to both of their highest speed feats possible they would actually match in speed as both would be immeasurable due to fighting god-like beings who can cross between dimensions that are infinite in size instantly. With Joker being able to fight Yaldabaoth who plunged the Velvet Room into Mementos. And Officer Howard fighting Noah who crosses from Our Dimension into the Astral Plane without having to use a gate, instantly. So the two of them would actually tie in speed. 

Attack Potency

Now when it comes to AP it gets slightly more tricky but it still results in a pretty obvious fashion. While both Joker and the Legionis have Multiversal to Outerversal feats and scaling, it would still result in Joker being substantially stronger. Think of it like this in terms of Multiversal scaling the Legionis scales to Yoseph's goal of fusing all of existence into a single being would affect both "Our dimension" and the Astral Plane which would grant it Low Multiversal due to affecting only two universes. And when addressing Joker's Multiversal ends all we really need to prove his superiority in that regard is his fight with Enlil as she creates an infinite number of universes to trap infinite souls in her labyrinths. And infinite is far larger than two. And when it comes to their Outer ends it gets even worse for the Legionis mainly for one reason, when it comes to the Legionis's Outer arguments they're still bound to the laws of physics, hence Low Outer.  And Joker's outer scaling coming from R>F transcendence. If you want to know why here's a link to the G1 team's Simon the Digger vs Kyle Rayner 2025 blog, where they go into extensive detail over what Outerversal is and R>F transcendence is Outer and more powerful than transcending dimensions. So no matter which ends you put on Joker and Legionis, Joker would be stronger regardless. Oh and to address buffs and debuffs, they wouldn't really affect either of them as Joker can cleanse stat debuffs on himself and The Legionis has passive buffs that will be active regardless and cannot be turned off.


Versatility

Now when it comes to this category you might be thinking, why is this even category, surely Joker has this in the bag? Hold on and hear me out for a minute while it is true that Joker's sheer number of Personas far outnumbers the Legions Officer Howard possesses I think the Legionis would actually take this category. I know it sounds crazy but here me out, when it comes to sheer numbers yes Joker has more, but when it comes to pure useful versatility I believe the Legionis posseses it, mainly due to every Legion having its own unique skills that they can use and while some Personas have unique skills most of them share the same pool of skills. And the Legionis can even use certain unique skills with one Legion and then swap out for another one, and the skills would still be active. The most notable examples would be the Axe Legions Blue Shields and Crash Bombs not disappearing even if they swap out the Axe Legion for another one. And not to mention the vastly more creative ways that Officer Howard uses their Legions like in their final gambit against Noah, and Joker has never shown that type of creativity in combat before. And let's not forget the ability that they can technically have more than one Legion in the battlefield at the same time compared to Joker who can only use one at a time no matter what. Due to these vast array of reasons I believe that the Legionis would actually take Versatility overall.

Skill & Experience

When it comes to experience I would give it to Joker as he has been operating as a Phantom thief and fighting enemies for about a year compared to the few weeks of Chimera slaying that the Legionis has. But when it comes to skill I would give it a tie, as they both have shown similar levels of skill to people who are far more experienced than them and the Legionis' creative uses of their powers can even catch Joker off guard. So Joker gets experience and they get a tie in skill.

Arsenal & Abilities

 Now when it comes to their arsenal and abilities I would be inclined to give this a tie as they mostly cancel each other out and especially since neither of them would be able to get the jump on the other one thanks to the IRIS and Third Eye which would give them each other's locations and weaknesses at all times. And there is the fact that most if not all of Joker's potential status ailments cannot be inflicted on the Legionis thanks to their ability codes. But there is one thing that sways my vote here to Joker, say it with me know Almighty attacks, no matter how powerful the defenses the Legionis uses, like the Blue Shields or Sync Shield with the Axe Legion, they would get bypassed due to Almighty attacks being able to bypass stronger defenses like the Karn barriers and the Omnipotent Orb.

Conclusion

Joker


Advantages:
  • Substantially stronger regardless of giving both Outer Scaling to both or not
  • More experienced than the Legionis
  • Faster in finite ends
  • His Personas far outnumber the Legions of Officer Howard
  • His trump cards are more reliable than the Legionis' (thanks Almighty magic)
Equal:
  • Matching speed in infinite end arguments
  • Similar skill 
  • Most of their arsenal and abilities cancel each other out
  • Buffs and debuffs don't matter as neither can be debuffed but both can buff their stats
Disadavantages:
  • Less versatile overall due to less unique skills
  • Less creative use of his Personas compared to Officer Howard's Legions
  • Can only use one Persona at a time and can be overwhelmed as the Legionis can use 2 at a time in certain circumstances
  • Cannot inflict status ailments on the Legionis

Legionis

Advantages:
  • More versatile overall due to having more unique abilities
  • Uses their summons way more creatively than Joker does
  • Can temporarily outnumber Joker with the Hit Rush skill and summoning another Legion
  • Cannot be inflicted with status ailments
Equal:
  • Given infinite ends, they match in speed
  • Most of their arsenal cancels each others out
  • Similar skill
  • Buffs and debuffs don't matter as neither can be debuffed but both can buff their stats
Disadvantages:
  • Less experienced than Joker overall
  • Slower if not given infinite ends of speed
  • Still has substantially less options to work in terms of summons compared to the sheer number of Joker's
  • Substantially less powerful regardless if given Outer scaling or not
  • Trump card abilities get countered by Joker's (why Almighty magic)

So in conclusion this a great matchup and they both do have their own wincons with the Legionis' versatility and insane creativity and Joker's raw power and trump cards. So what I believe is that thanks to speed being equal it is possible for the Legionis to overwhelm Joker, for a time. Yeah this still comes down to the basically infinite gap in power between the two regardless if they're given Outer Scaling or not. And then there's Almighty magic which would bypass any form of defense that the Legionis could use as none of their defenses are on the scale of the Omnipotent Orb or the Karn barriers. And then there's the possibility that if Satanael and the Legion Fusion come to blows it's highly likely that the Legionis might not be able to even harm Joker due to his element draining, which includes physical attacks, although the energy rings could be argued as Almighty. Too bad he has another argument against that as well due to blocking Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control. So yeah while the Legionis does have their fair share of advantages they would still all pale to the Wild Card. The winner is Joker.


 

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